Defining Moment: Discerning process on Re-Baptism

[Margie]

You're right, Rick.

[Wixx]

One thing we might consider a bout baptism.  It is wet and messy and not in keeping with the neat way we want to present ourselves in public gatherings.  So.... a person really hbas to be committed to do it and will be better members than if they could just join with a handshake, a letter, or a confirming prayer. 

It kinda seems to be human nature that we do not respect things which come too easily.

Could this be a factor?

[leondberg]

Especially the folks (like me) that had/have a fear of being under water; maybe held down by someone you don't trust to let you back up!  <joking>

When I was baptized into the LDS/Mormon church as a young teenager my fear of being in the water was so intense that my feet popped up out of the water upon immersion; now the Mormons are real sticklers for the "letter of the law" so when my feet came up the "presider/witness" said it had to be done again.  Ok, second time, the prayer, the immersion and one or 2 feet popped up again; so a 3rd time they did it with the Baptizer stepping very hard onto my toes with his foot!  Let's just say that after 3 times under I was very pure and very Mormon.

My RLDS baptism was less repetitive and less exciting (but much more meaningful to me), I guess I was older and less fearful.  But someone forgot to turn off the faucet and after the service the room started to flood and drip into the basement where we were gathered. I'm not sure what that signifies about my membership here.

leon

One thing we might consider a bout baptism.  It is wet and messy and not in keeping with the neat way we want to present ourselves in public gatherings.  So.... a person really hbas to be committed to do it and will be better members than if they could just join with a handshake, a letter, or a confirming prayer. 

It kinda seems to be human nature that we do not respect things which come too easily.

Could this be a factor?

[Leigh Anne]

I feel that as a church it is arrogant that we are the "one true church" and " restored PH".  These are terms that should go the way of the whip and buggy.  We consider marriage a sacrament but don't ask married couples to remarry when they join the church.
Baptism is a committed to serve Christ.  In my congregation right now there are 3 people who attend on a regular basis , one in fact is our CFO, who refuse to be re-basptize but would be confirmed.  The sincerely feel that the committment they made in their orginal baptism should be recognized by the church.

It is time to recongized that there are other ministers out there that have just as much authority as ours,,,infact sometimes I think more.

The marriage comparison is a good one, but I don't think it went far enough.  In the early church, they were still Jewish, and the mikvah was still a part of their lives.  Before going to the temple they would immerse and purify themselves.  Before a marriage both bride and groom would immerse as a symbol that all old relationships were done away and a new one was about to begin.  So, how do we see baptism?  As a ritual purification?  MOre than once is fine then.  Closer to a marriage with the Lord?  A one time thing maybe....but even then, the wives especially would continue to purify themselves monthly.   

The big question I have in all this is why do we need priesthood at all to do it?  Can't we just baptize ourselves?  Or is their something special about having another person involved?  If so what?  And what qualifications does this person need to have?

Leigh Anne

[Levohn]

The scriptures, as I read them, say to become a child of God we have to accept the Lord Jesus as the Son of God and love him and his father with all our hearts.  That means to me to seek Jesus and put him first.

If you love someone you will follow his teachings.  Jesus called us to repent of our sins and be baptized in a cleansing ceremony as well as a community witness that you have given your life to Christ.  It is in the repentant mode that you come to someone who has the authority to lay hands upon your head and confirm the Holy Spirit into your life. It also, according to the Doctrine and Covenants, brings membership into the church and gives you all the privileges of membership in the body of Christ.

I don't think just anybody has the divine authority to confer the Holy Spirit into your life.  I believe the Holy Spirit works with everybody from without but at confirmation, which comes after the cleansing of our souls, then we truly invite the Holy Spirit inside and it begins to work from within so we can truly become like Jesus.

That is why Joseph Smith in the letter quoted by our historian wasn't concerned about a lady who was baptized into our church, left and was baptized into, I believe it was, the Baptist church.  He said she didn't need to be re-baptized because the other one (my words) did not interfere with her first baptism.


Levohn

[Leigh Anne]

The scriptures, as I read them, say to become a child of God we have to accept the Lord Jesus as the Son of God and love him and his father with all our hearts.  That means to me to seek Jesus and put him first.

Levohn

I personally see all of us as children of God, and that one does not have to accept Jesus as the Son of God and Lord to be loved as a child of God.  I was personally loved by God long before I accepted Jesus.  But accepting Jesus made my life so much better.   

Leigh Anne

[FLowell]

The Jewish teacher/Rabbi Hillel is quoted as having said something to the effect tht we should not do unto others what we would not have others do unto us, and all of the rest is commentary.

Baptism is, for me, part of that commentary.  It means different things to different people, sects, families, tribes, churches.  It is used by some to elevate themselves above others, it becomes the "membership" card for some.  And, it represents a meaningful expression of acceptance for many, a symbol of having been "saved" or accepted, and a source of never-ending debate when we could focus on what it means to be a contributing part of the human family.

It is not necessary for me to know that a friend or an acquaintance has been "baptized" in the "right way" for me to be able to fully accept her/him as a teacher, or minister, or friend.  Baptism is one of those vestiges of history and church member and leaders spend enormous energy attempting to justify, define, and explain, when there are far more important issues to be addressed.

I'm in agreement with Terri, it is too often a means by which we separate ourselves from others.  In today's world, culture, I think there are other more meaningful ways for us to declare wsho we are and what we believe to be of importance ---atruly a never ending and evolving process.

Here's my take on baptism....

God doesn't need or require us to be baptized, sprinkled, immersed etc.  Humans have created symbols and traditions that help us draw closer to the divine.

Because of the historical/religious history of ritual cleansing that permeates our judeo christian roots and many other religions, we have created a need to be baptized.  For some, the reason we 'need' baptism is to wash away our sins, as if they are somehow physically on our skin and can be washed off.

For others, physical baptism is necessary in order for God to let us into heaven after we die.

For others, baptism is a symbolic representation of the act of commiting to God in a public way, a symbolic 'rebirth'.

Regardless of why we do baptism, I personally don't believe that God needs or requires baptism to love and accept us.

IMO, it's just one more way we separate ourselves from others, by making our baptism process in the church necessary for someone to prove themselves worthy of membership in our church.

Terri

[patm]

The Jewish teacher/Rabbi Hillel is quoted as having said something to the effect tht we should not do unto others what we would not have others do unto us, and all of the rest is commentary.

Baptism is, for me, part of that commentary.  It means different things to different people, sects, families, tribes, churches.  It is used by some to elevate themselves above others, it becomes the "membership" card for some.  And, it represents a meaningful expression of acceptance for many, a symbol of having been "saved" or accepted, and a source of never-ending debate when we could focus on what it means to be a contributing part of the human family.

It is not necessary for me to know that a friend or an acquaintance has been "baptized" in the "right way" for me to be able to fully accept her/him as a teacher, or minister, or friend.  Baptism is one of those vestiges of history and church member and leaders spend enormous energy attempting to justify, define, and explain, when there are far more important issues to be addressed.

I'm in agreement with Terri, it is too often a means by which we separate ourselves from others.  In today's world, culture, I think there are other more meaningful ways for us to declare wsho we are and what we believe to be of importance ---atruly a never ending and evolving process.

Here's my take on baptism....

God doesn't need or require us to be baptized, sprinkled, immersed etc.  Humans have created symbols and traditions that help us draw closer to the divine.

Because of the historical/religious history of ritual cleansing that permeates our judeo christian roots and many other religions, we have created a need to be baptized.  For some, the reason we 'need' baptism is to wash away our sins, as if they are somehow physically on our skin and can be washed off.

For others, physical baptism is necessary in order for God to let us into heaven after we die.

For others, baptism is a symbolic representation of the act of commiting to God in a public way, a symbolic 'rebirth'.

Regardless of why we do baptism, I personally don't believe that God needs or requires baptism to love and accept us.

IMO, it's just one more way we separate ourselves from others, by making our baptism process in the church necessary for someone to prove themselves worthy of membership in our church.

Terri

Ditto